Catch & release?

I agree with you
were can one obtain a chart about breeding size of our KZN common specie
is there research to support this

most fish take along time to reach sexual maturity
lets have a list of fish that you know of and the period it takes
I have spoken to South African Association for Marine Biological Research
Direct Tel: +27 (31) 328 8160 Fax: +27 (31) 328 8188
e-mail: erika@ori.org.za
1 King Shaka Avenue, Point, Durban 4001 KwaZulu-Natal South Africa
PO Box 10712, Marine Parade 4056 KwaZulu-Natal South Africa

lets await some feed back and educate fellow anglers

Great idea Marcus, I will see what I can find. What I do know as a fact, is that reef fish (like cracker, GT, bronze bream etc) grow much slower than pelagic open water fish (like yellowtail, couta etc); so they take a long time to reach sexual maturity.

Reef fish are also doubly vulnerable because many of them are territorial, and thus heavily fished areas can quickly become completely fished out of resident species.

an interesting read
External Link: www.seaworld.org.za
another great site is fish the sea it as a nice write up on fish specie and sexual maturity

External Link: www.fishthesea.co.za

Not a comprehensive list, must sends a powerful message.

External Link: www.ori.org.za

More details.

Great stuff, thanks Adrian. I do worry though, that only you, myself, Marcus and other like minded individuals will read this stuff though - "a man hears (reads) what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

Anyway, a while ago I heard a nice explanation of how to think about fish populations: Think of a fish species pristine, un-fished population as a full bath. As more fish are taken out the bath empties, but initially there are still some fish in most of their territory. When the population gets really low, there's only water left around the plughole. The species may have disappeared elsewhere, but around the plughole they are still fairly abundant; and it's this phenomenon that allows anglers to think that a fish population is still healthy, when the truth is that it's now only healthy in one very small spot. So people fish that particular spot for that species until suddenly the bath is completely empty. At 4% of pristine population, the kob/salmon must be circling that plughole

It would actually make more sense to turn the whole fishing restrictions system we have on its head. So instead of only being allowed to keep fish over a certain size, we should only be able to keep fish under a certain size. That way the breeding stock would be better protected. I know they have done this in some more progressive countries overseas, but I don't hold out much hope for our government officials to have a lightbulb moment on this. Which means us fishermen need to think, and act wisely, and do the right thing.

it will do the stocks good to have that implemented for sure. the only issue is, many "anglers" can't even keep to minimum size and bag limits, how will they even keep to maximum size limits.

Ja without proper implementation of the laws, all this is just idealistic talk. Call me naive, but I think I do still like to think there's a growing move towards self regulation, and responsible fishing. Thanks largely to the TV fishing shows I suspect

Gents, if you guys can get or compile a list of Protected and Under Threat Fish, I will post it with a permanent link on the left tabs.

I think it is important to educate our all our members and the general public on these things.

Ronald, here is Sassi list, very easy to understand.

External Link: wwfsassi.co.za

More effort should be directed towards the Authorities that regulate restrictions - surely they are conducted by expertise and well founded research. We should have accountability/explanations behind the regulations - e.g. why is 2 salmon/kob allowed for offshore whilst the shore angler is restricted to one (talk about kob being endangered).
There are those that fish for recreation (where catch & release is appreciated) and those that fish for the fish (only enforcement may work here).

That SASSI site is a useful guide but it refers to which fish one should buy rather than catch/keep. For example blacktail are listed as red to buy, but actually they are a common fish which surely can be kept? I'll ask my fishy friends if they know of any other info sites

You right Allan. I just went through it and there isn't much information on whether those fish are protected, under threat or safe to catch.

Hi Marcus

We have some basic information about the most common fish species on our website. Navigate to External Link: www.ori.org.za
If you want more detailed information about a specific species, you can email Bruce Mann bruce@ori.org.za
He is very helpful and should be able to help you.

Kind regards
Erika Steyn
South African Association for Marine Biological Research
Direct Tel: +27 (31) 328 8160 Fax: +27 (31) 328 8188
e-mail: erika@ori.org.za
1 King Shaka Avenue, Point, Durban 4001 KwaZulu-Natal South Africa
PO Box 10712, Marine Parade 4056 KwaZulu-Natal South Africa

This is an interesting topic , thanks to all for insight shared. Question , is it not perhaps time for a review of all regulations in terms of catch and release? does anyone know after what period reviews are done and also any studies on survival rates of tagged fish that are released? Was watching Ocean warriors on Discovery earlier this week, its astounding how the seas are being pillaged .

Oliver, I couldn't agree more about it being time for a review of catch & rlease regulations, but doubt the present administration will do this anytime soon. ORI are doing great work and run the tagging program in SA. I'm sure you will be able to find info on survival rates of tagged fish on their site (External Link: www.seaworld.org.za I seem to remember reading that it is very high, but please confirm when you find the info

its sad that no recent research is done
if you look at the dates research was compiled on all the links provided they arte older than most of us

David which country implemented those rules I would like to know

Hope this helps
this a 375 page document on all fish in south Africa

Were did you see , hear or read about kob been in trouble ?

Ashraf, to be honest my memory is a bit fuzzy but I think it was certain states in the USA. I did a quick google and found that the principle is being applied in Australia - they limit the number of bigger fish you're allowed to keep for certain species: scroll down this list - External Link: www.dpi.nsw.gov.au

Hi Kesavan, it was in an article earlier in this thread that kob are at only 4% of their original population (External Link: www.fishthesea.co.za but I have seen similar figures quoted elsewhere too

Good day David , I couldn't open the link , so I went straight to www.fishthesea.co.za . Kob is on the green list

Hi Kesavan. That's odd, here it is again:

External Link: www.fishthesea.co.za

Thank you David , very nice article. So it says - ''since 1850 , science has revealed that the dusky kob population is less than 4% of what it used to be''
From 1850 - 2017 is a heck of a long time , still does not mean that the kob population is in trouble

I don't really get your point Kesavan? The issue is not how long it's taken to deplete the stock, but rather that it is at 4% of pristine level. I'm curious, what percent do you think we should let the kob population to get to, before we start releasing big breeding fish?

The kob population is not on 4%.
It dropped by 4% from its last recorded population.
I work with inboard engines so ive been on commercial fishing vessels.
Ive seen more than 20 tones of kob been commercially fished.
If they were on 4% it would be on the RED list (endangered species)

Unfortunately, you are wrong Kesavan. If you google, multiple scientific sources will tell you that kob stocks are at approximately 4% of their original unfished population. To quote the SASSI site, "kabeljou stocks have been severely depleted to levels of around 1.0-4.5% of their unexploited populations. Stock levels are currently rated as over-fished." (External Link: wwfsassi.co.za

I wish your big deepsea catch story disproved this, but it doesn't. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a while ago I heard a nice explanation of how to think about fish populations: Think of a fish species pristine, un-fished population as a full bath. As more fish are taken out the bath empties, but initially there are still some fish in most of their territory. When the population gets really low, there's only water left around the plughole. The species may have disappeared elsewhere, but around the plughole they are still fairly abundant; and it's this phenomenon that allows anglers to think that a fish population is still healthy, when the truth is that it's now only healthy in one very small spot. So people fish that particular spot for that species until suddenly the bath is completely empty. At 4% of pristine population, the kob/salmon must be circling that plughole.

Surely my friend, you'd rather help this fish species recover and release big breeders, than keep every one you catch until there are none left?

A certain Nic Maitland who is a mate of Gilles will be able to provide substantiated info regarding the SA Kob population, Gilles is currently doing Kob reaserch in a facility in Mthunzini, Zululand

Awesome Andy, it would be great to get some current research info

@David , ok ive read this , shocking to see such figures , so kob population is less than seventyfour I assume

You right, it is shocking Kesavan. I don't know 74s stats, but I think I remember hearing that their numbers were slowly increasing after almost completely dying out a few years ago. There was/is a complete ban on keeping them no? I remember my grandfather talking about how many he used to catch in his youth (1930s) - sad what our species can do when we don't think/know about the consequences of our actions

Yeah very sad and yes total ban on seventyfour . Still very hard to believe about the kob , with so many been caught by commercials , I myself have got a secret spot for kob , I see plenty on my sonar almost everytime im on this spot , we just drop and we on , they around 60-90cm

I guess you must be near the plug hole in the bath - fun while it lasts, but it won't last long

Lmao , that plug hole not gona move my friend , atleast for me it wont , I,ll post pictures of my catches for you on this site

Cool. I hope the pics are of you releasing beautiful, big salmon - then I'll be impressed!

Speaking of 74's, this fish was almost wiped out by anglers which is proof that the same can happen to any other species. Considering the shocking 4% figure for Kob Stocks I imagine it is only a matter of time before the Kob faces this same fate.

Yes the 74 population is on the increase, and I have heard that Deep Sea bottom fishing in PE can result in almost 3 or 4 74's being caught. Seeing as this fish cannot be kept, anglers are now finding the 74 to be a pest. But it is good to know that a complete Ban has worked. Maybe they should be considering this same ban for Kob.

I totally agree Ronald. It all seems so obvious to me how serious the situation is, that I'm surprised we're still having these lengthy discussions about what the right and wise thing to do is. For all fishermen who care about the future of the sport, catch & release should be the norm, and only a few abundant fish species kept for the pot

The whole thing about reasearch is bull. If you are an angler you DO NOT NEED research. I know that five years ago I used to catch ten Karateen within a hour. Now I catch 1. THERE IS NONONE to blame besides ME.

So today I catch only what I can eat on that day. So catching 2 Garricks every day because the law allows you to is BULL. You cannot eat that.

So research into this and that is not what AN ANGLER must ask for. YOU HAVE THE RESEARCH in your brain

Good for you, Jace. So nice to hear a fisherman wisely thinking for himself, rather than continuing to blindly take more fish than he needs because the regulations say he can.

I do still think that research is important in confirming what fishermen already know (but some still argue with). So it's not an either/or thing with research and fishermen's common sense - the actually support each other

Limit your catch , not catch your limit...should be standard angler mantra.. here is a link from studies done on the Breede River e
Estuarine system. An important area for breeding and nurseries for Kob, White Steenbras and Spotted Grunter amongst other species. Its quite a long but interesting read on the good work being done, refer page 29/30 Kob numbers definitely down in one of the more important areas in SA
External Link: www.westerncape.gov.za .

Gee Whizz...What a long but interesting thread. I agree on all the positive points here I mean i love my grandad to bits but when he laughs at me for using a 1/0 to catch shad it does become a bit frustrating. The source of his laughter is because back in his day 9/0 was the minmum size hook for shad apparently.....a shad that takes a 9/0 hook now that's a fish I would love see returning to our shores. Limit your catch done catch your limit as per dean from RSD i totally agree.

I think our theme should be "Fish for the Future". Sends out a strong enough message, appealing to the conscience of all decent Human Beings.

Good day fellow anglers , I see this topic as lengthened drastically so heres my comment.
Firstly , I am glad that anglers are concerned about the fish stocks for the future so thank you.
Second, I dont believe that recreational anglers effect fish stocks, bottom line!
Im going to take two common species as an example , blacktail and shad that as been exploited by recreational anglers for many years !
Lets start with the blacktail , if you take a drive to any local beach you gonna find an angler with a bucket with alot of palm sized blacktail , the common response "just for a fry" , pathetic uh ? This is happening for many years but still the first fish you catch at a local beach is blacktail , the slowest growing fish in the ocean ! Why ? Because it is not of commercial importance! If it was commercially fish there'll been none left!
Next species shad , the species that recreational anglers exploited and abused catching in the hundreds even thousands but go to any bait mark in the ocean , the first fish you catch is shad ! Why ? Simply because is not of commercial importance!
Now we talking about the "KOB" which as been commercially fished for many years , one commercial boat can take out tonnes of kob in one outing legally! And we still point fingers at recreational anglers for not releasing his catch ! What a shame !
Our researchers know this story but have their hands tied cause of government rules on commercial fishing(they dont have catch limits)
Lets take 5 recreational anglers who fish twice a month and catch their limit of kob for 5 years , still doesnt even come close to what one commercial boat does in one day !
Catch and release ? Yup release it so the commercial guys can catch it !

So you think we should just carry on keeping threatened fish until there are no more then Kesavan? Seems short-sighted to me. No doubt the commercials have a big impact, but I don't think us recreational anglers can wash our hands of any guilt for the situation, and shared responsibility for trying to make it right.

Besides, I don't think your argument holds. Shad stocks and average sizes have definitely decreased - as someone previously noted on this thread - comparing the size hooks his grandfather used to use for shad, and what size he uses now. Blacktail breed fast and are not as territorial as other reef fish like musselcracker and rockcod, which does make blacktail more resilient to exploitation, yes. On that note, would you class musselcracker and rockcod as a commercial species? I think of them more as a target for recreational fisherman, yet there populations have been decimated. What about garrick? There are still a few around, but nothing like there used to be, and you can't blame the commercials for that one.

So rather than saying "it wasn't me" and carrying on keeping fish as we always have, surely fishermen should start thinking about the consequences of their actions a bit more, and taking on the responsibility of making things right again?



I

The government has no control of anything in this country people are let to do as they please,even allowed from Chinese trawlers to fish our waters,so the problem is the commercial fishing not the average man fishing to feed his family.

@david I respect your commit , shad are migrating species and grow to a considerable size in foreign waters , why they migrate from south African waters , we dont know , maybe the change in climate.
And yes rockord and cracker are commercial species but have sustained themselves cause they not shoaling species.

Well said. That's the ideology from comm anglers for years. The recreational anglers are brainwashed by "conservation "
Bottom line is that the brown brothers target shad, black tail and garrick.
Thank you
Naren

Some comments here seem to imply that recreational fishing does have a minimal impact on fish stocks , whilst that may be the case it does not stop every recreational angler( that includes most of us on this website) from practicing good fishing habits in limiting your catch and releasing wherever possible, leave your fishing spot in a better condition than you found it . Nothing wrong with keeping a fish or two for the pot as long as its within the laws. DAFF and Govt are there to enforce the laws , if every angler behaves responsibly these chaps wont need to do much. The onus is on the recreational angler to act responsibly and respect the oceans. Its not brainwashed to believe that the oceans resources will run dry if not sustained properly , every little bit of conservation matters. That's my more than 2 cents worth , this topic is a good one and maybe needs to be kept as a point of reference.

"Lets take 5 recreational anglers who fish twice a month"

What about the "recreational anglers" that go out to places like Blue Lagoon, or Glen Ashley almost on a daily basis and catch shad by the packet full? any and every size imaginable? are they not destroying the population? There was a post on a fishing page on Facebook where there was a bunch of poachers (yes, that is exactly what they are) that where caught catching shad in closed season over a 2 day period (2 days that where observed, leaving out the days that where not observed). on the second day, one of the guys didn't even change his clothes and was backing catching a fish in it's closed season. What does that tell you? Perhaps he also though he was keeping them out of the commercials hands. Two wrongs apparently make a right?

IMO, it's those recreational anglers also play a huge role in plundering stocks. No use blaming commercials as a tactic to keep as much as you can catch.

Hi
Why is there so much kob in port saint johns and hardly any in our coastline.
Answer: There are no commercial licences issued in eastern cape.
The kob have a chance to come close to shore in abundance and is not caught deeper at their plug hole.
There are NO night rated boats in those areas.
Can one fisherman catch one ton of kob in a year or two?
Regards
Naren

Glad to see the plug hole term catching on!
Your theory that it because there are no commercials could be correct Naren. But so could it be that the EC is indeed a last outpost plughole area for Kob - we don't know. Even if it is largely the commercials that are responsible, does that make it okay for recreational fishermen to regularly keep big breeding kob? That's what your logic seems to imply I think no?

Agreed Naren, but still does not give "recreational" anglers the right to take everything they catch. Again, 2 wrongs do not make a right.

These where supposedly caught in PSJ (by whom, i'm not sure hence the blocking of their faces). If this is caught on a daily basis, even weekly. It won't take a year or two catch a ton of Kob.

This was on 1 day, how much more are caught that slip through the cracks? Still think "recreational" anglers don't contribute to diminishing stocks?

Dear Dave
I am not implying what you are trying to perceive.
I merely asked the question and do not support over fishing, either commercila or recreational.
To be honest , I couldnt care a damn as long as my conscience is clean and clear.
Kind Regards
Naren

Dear Adrian.
For your information, these were caught by the locals from PSJ and not by those posing there like top anglers.
They only posed for a photo. See the one guy doesnt have a reel on his rod.
In case you didnt know, there were 25 locals on the beach that day.
These locals catch to earn a living.
Regards
Naren

Glad to know you where there Naren, but who caught it is besides the point don't you think? No where did i state it was them that caught it, i actually don't know who caught it as i was not there. Fishing to put food on the table is perfectly fine. As long as it is done within the limits. If a rule applies to one, it applies to all.

Funny you say fishing for a living as justification for their fish. are they selling it?

Hi
I wasnt there but my gilly gave me the update and sent me the picture.
Go to PSJ and tell them how you feel. Maybe it will make a huge diference.
Regards
Naren

Ah, my apologies Naren. From your words i assumed you where there. Good to know you got reliable hearsay (yes, that is exactly what it is as you where not there)

If i ever do go down to PSJ, i will definitely invite a few DAFF members to come along. I will not confront them as my safety and that of my families are more important. But will definitely get as much proof as i can and do something about it. Which is way more than many people do these days.

@adrain , where in this entire discussion did I or anyone else say that it is ok to take whatever you catch ??? Poachers are illegal commercial fishermen! Not recreational anglers !

Kesavan, you did not.

But comments like this sends a message that it may be ok to do so,
"Catch and release ? Yup release it so the commercial guys can catch it !"

Far too often people use the commercials as pedestal to justify poaching. I say it again, two wrongs don't make a right.

gentleman
this platform was created to inspire and collect information
so that other anglers can read and see the requirements
this is not a racial thing do not go there Dhanne as it causes problems
in general we all have to change the mind set
every one of us

back in the day you could go to any piece of beach and the average shad and blacktail was 30cm WAS
today its different because of the human attitude towards the ocean

Sorry but i am allergic to bull ,its not a racial plat form neither is this a penis measuring contest
it is purely stating facts and observation
please keep the two cents and stories out of this thread

@Adrian , point taken
But do not forget that commercial fishing is not regulated thus making them legal poachers in my book.
How much do you know about commercial fishing , do you have friends or family that are commercials?
If you have time to travel with me , you are most welcome to do so , I will show you what commercial fishing is all about.
Kind regards

Kesavan- much agreed that they are legal poachers, no argument there.

I do not have a vast knowledge on commercials, but what we see on a daily basis from both commercial and R&S is enough to know that both sides have an impact and both sides needs attention before it is too late.

Thank you

they is a very old thing we were taught in school about debate
when you debate the principle then you win
when you debate the person you loose

The only thing I learnt in school is if you take de bait to the principal, you win, if you take de bait to the pier son, you catch feesh :-)
Ok ice broken!!!
Guys the easiest way to get push back and start a debate from recreational fishermen is to tell them that they are causing the depletion of fishing stocks....this goes round in circles till everyone is dizzy and ends with almost everyone changing views 180 degrees and another debate begins!!!
Let's focus efforts less on blame for where we are and more on where we want to be and how we going to get there (education)!!. I reckon we will get a lot more buy in that way. Sorry Marco, but I had to add my 2 meticals

Nice thoughts Rakesh. So lets do it:

Where we are: In deep trouble. Many popular angling species (like kob, musselcracker, rock-cod, grunter etc) are today at under 4% of their pristine population numbers. These fish are continuing to be caught and kept by both commercial and recreational anglers. Big breeding specimens in particular (which are vital for increasing numbers), are routinely kept, and celebrated. The authorities don't seem to have the authority, will or innovation in their approach to remedy the situation.

Where we want to be: Surely us fishermen want fish to be abundant and still be there for our grand-children's grand-children to catch? However, the fact that many fishermen still think it's okay to keep big breeding fish of fish species under serious threat, suggests that not all do feel this way.

How we going to get there: Yes I agree Rakesh - education. We need to make more people aware of just how much kak fish stocks are in. But what I find frustrating is when people who are well aware that a fish species is under threat, still choose to keep big breeding fish. What do we do then - when some people willfully destroy the thing they (and we all) love?

{External Link: www.saltstrong.com } Saw this on another forum , great article which compliments this topic

@Oliver thank you for the link buddy

Thanks Oliver
Very interesting reading.
Regards
Naren

Very helpful article, thank you Oliver

In the old days we learnt as we fish, tried different baits and different tackle/techniques to target different species. I blame myself and social media for teaching people that do not have ethics in life that have learnt from my posts. These people will destroy the species that are threatened by overfishing and do not care. Most of them are not even on these platforms however will boast a catch or more than few now and again. How do we educate them to release?..........? By doing it yourself. So ask yourself when was the last time you released a fish? I personally have caught one garrack and kob this year both around the 5 killo mark. Yes they were taken for the pot. I ate the kob and the garrack was shared between my dad and sister. I could have caught many and believe you me many, however I catch a species for the year and will start targeting other species as the excitement for that catch or technique has gone. Next year my plan will change as I will tag and release as many fish as I can. So for me I will teach those that I know that will respect the ocean and unfortunate to say however those are my kids.